“My girl Arianna Huffington recently nailed the Republican party w/the following characterization (one which I'll never top): 'A party that believes in torture but not evolution'.”

The false premises there are that:
1) extracting information by force is always a bad thing
2) that believing we evolved from cosmic slime is legitimate, wise, factual, and good.


“Now that is, of course, a sweeping generalization, but essentially sums up my problems w/the Bushwhackers, especially John "George the Third" McCain, what with his 100 years in Iraq, which while not quite the baldfaced 'deaf to America' move as Cheney's "So?" in response to the FACT that over 70% of Americans are against the Iraq war, but too close for my tastes and, anyway, the man (McCain) did say that people's economic problems are 'psychological', did he not?”

One false premise there is that:
1) 70% of Americans would like us to pull out and fail in Iraq.


“And it pains me to say that this type of foolishness has gotten elected (well, inaugurated) not once, but twice, and I expect that come January 2009 they'll be playing 'Hail to the Chief' for McCain as America will always put the old white guy in office over the brother, no matter how intelligent the brother might be, or how out of touch, or even evil, the old white dude is. You can look it up.”

One false premise there is that
1) a great deal of whites, even Republicans, were not on fire for Obama before Jeremiah Wright exposed him for the mixed-up buffoon that he actually is. Obama and Wright should be praising America


“So it's safe to say I'm not backing McCain. Which leaves the Democrats. Hillary, what happened? Sniper fire in Bosnia?!! 'Shame on you, Barak Obama?!! And has anyone else noticed that, in her infamous '3 am phone call' ad, that she let the damn phone ring 6 times? Just asking. I'm left w/the feeling that this woman wants to win more than anything else, including doing what might be best for her, and my, country, and will apparently stop at nothing to do so. Deception, method acting and smear tactics. Shame on you, Hillary Clinton.
So, whither Barak? Smoother than smooth gets smooth, so slick he don't sound slick, which is as slick as you can get, I want to believe he believes what he's saying, but the whole 'aide goes to Canada and nudge, nudge, wink, winks' the whole antiNAFTA stance of the campaign as empty promises for the populace leads me to believe that Obama ain't as above it all as he so convincingly speechifies himself to be. Clearly the best of a pretty bad lot, and probably the man I'll actually vote for, Obama's also probably a lost cause due to America's tendency to not vote for folks who make them feel stupid, and of course the whole 'old white dude' problem.”

One false premise prevalent above is that:
1) There should be any surprise whatsoever that Democrats lie, exaggerate, and slick-talk on a regular basis. Yes, some Republicans sometimes too; but most Republicans do not make power a religion to the degree that Democrats do, so there is significantly less.

“But if I were to truly pick a person who unflinchingly sees America as the great idea gone horribly wrong that it's become and has the courage to point out painful, but obvious, cracks in our beloved system then there is only one man I see on the horizon as an honest leader, courageous enough to scream that the emperor has no clothes and that it actually was (and is) our foreign policy that's responsible for 9-11 and refuses to jingo dem bells in false patriotism while the ship is not only sinking, but on fire. A man that sees American complicity in torture and puppet regimes as what's truly anti-American, not the engaged dissent of those genuinely disappointed in what the current administration represents so reprehensibly. A man who I see as a true patriot, unafraid to stand up and decry what America has become in the view of the world.”

Some of the false premises there are that
1) the Wrights of the world are not the one responsible for the cracks in the system
2) our foreign policy should not be against Islamic extremists
3) that the Wrights of the world correctly identify the cracks in the system and their causes


“Ladies and gentlemen, the punkrockblues Presidential endorsement goes to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright. And before you call him a traitor (or worse) remember, America was founded by traitors. And worse.Wright in 2008. god damn america.”

Two of the false premises there are that
1) People wanting religious freedom for them and their loved ones are traitors. Read your history.
2) A proud millionaire Farrakhan supporting preacher who teaches his flock to depend on the government instead of themselves, and who doesn’t bat an eye at the bloodshed on the unborn caused by his party, would be good for anything, let alone the president.

Congratulations Tim, you are the perfect Homer Simpson that the Dems want you to be. They depend on your types for their power. All you have to be is a ticked off bitter soul instead of a level-headed grateful soul, and they got you right where they want you. Instead of turning left and coughing for the liberals, put on a protective cup and look right for a more sober level-headed view of reality.

signed "Jim", in case you weren't sure. ;-)

Jim

i've just about given up on this election. i can't vote for any of them.

please, please, let there be a decent libertarian candidate.

hi tim. hi jim.

larryl

Or better yet, let the Constitution Party kick their Nazis out of their closet, stick to their actual platform, and recruit Ron Paul to lead the charge. It's a vote of futility, but so's the other, and I'll feel cleaner in the morning.

Although if Hillary snatches victory out of the jaws of Obama, I'm gonna have to go with McCain. Otherwise, it's pick yr poison -- Mr. Compromise vs. the black Jimmy Carter (i.e., when push comes to shove he'll fold like a cheap suitcase) -- and poison has never sat well on my stomach.

i just can't. i can't pull the lever (or push the little digital button, as the case may be) for any of them.

sorry... i have to sleep at night, and know i did the right thing. and supporting any of those three isn't it.

I agree. But I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I could've stopped Hillary, either. RP sure as heck won't accomplish that. :P

Again, between the other two, either pick yr poison or vote yr conscience. I'm thinking the latter, too, personally.

if hillary wins by one vote, then i'll feel bad.

Conscience leads me to support Wright, not for President of course for I truly believe that's out of the voters hands, but as an honest voice pointing out how fucked up AmeriKKa has become. If you don't believe that the government had a hand in either craqck or aids as a weapon against blacks, junkies nand gays remember, our land of the freebase has a history of this. Remember the Tuskegee Airmen.

Now tell me about false premises. Jim, you've been conned as much as you trhink I have. Obama is just another politician and I applaud Wright for outing him as such.

No matter what happens, or who gets elected (or inaugurated, as I believe McCain will be) it's only a matter of time befor the nukes are in the air. I firmly believe we are all doomed and, yes, it is all our fault.

god bless america? The false premise is that either exists.

tb

"Conscience leads me to support Wright, not for President of course for I truly believe that's out of the voters hands, but as an honest voice pointing out how fucked up AmeriKKa has become. If you don't believe that the government had a hand in either crack or aids as a weapon against blacks, junkies and gays remember, our land of the freebase has a history of this. Remember the Tuskegee Airmen."

And so therefore it logically follows that Bush and all Republicans are trying to wipe out blacks with crack and AIDS.

Tim, I really don't see how you expect to have a reasonable conversation with anybody, with attitudes like that.

The game's over no. You're over 50. You have to stop this stuff; you absolutely have to. It is imperative that you stop the nonsense at once.


"Now tell me about false premises. Jim, you've been conned as much as you trhink I have."

I use reason and sincerity as my guide, not bitterness. So the odds are that I cannot be nearly as conned as you.

You've totally let your guard down, and all too willingly. And all life's done is punch you in the face for it, and leave you with a bunch of crazy ideas that leave reasonable people yawning and heading for the exits.

"Obama is just another politician and I applaud Wright for outing him as such."

On that, he was correct.

"No matter what happens, or who gets elected (or inaugurated, as I believe McCain will be) it's only a matter of time before the nukes are in the air. I firmly believe we are all doomed and, yes, it is all our fault."

Why hasn't it happened yet?

"god bless america? The false premise is that either exists."

Again, you want people to say that America does not exist. Who's going to take you seriously?

Even you don't believe your won statements. All indications were that you saw a divine hand in your neighbors' chairty when your apartment burned down.

Open a box. Pretend to take all of the nonsense statements out of you. Put them in the box. Close it shut and seal it. Write "NOT TO BE USED AGAIN" with a big black marker on it. Head down to the dumpster, and be done with that whole attitude.

And then maybe we can have a real political-religious conversation for once.

Jim

Jim, what makes you think I want to have ANY kind of conversation w/you. My opinions are mine and don't have to impress you, dig?
tb

"Jim, what makes you think I want to have ANY kind of conversation w/you."

There goes that mean streak again.

"My opinions are mine and don't have to impress you, dig?"

No, I don't dig. Our opinions should not be like clothes we prefer to wear, but things that make sense.

Now I'm sick and darn tired of this "make crazy statement, then blow them away with two words if they don't like it."

That is no way for a grown man to live his life.

Jim

yer tim's dad now?

tim, are you getting child support from jim?

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that's how Jim views his purchase of Punk Rock Blues, etc., yes. :D

Well hey, the widow's penny was more than the millionaire's 50k. :-b

Jim

America doesn't exist? Asjk a Cherok
kee.
tb

"Does America exist? Ask a Cherokee."

OK. but first let me ask a black freed from slavery and given the right to vote, if Ameirca exists.

Then, let me ask a woman who has been given the right to vote, if America exists.

Then let me ask those freed from Nazi Germany if America exists.

Then let me ask those freed from Saddam Hussein if America exists.

Then let me ask the millions of volunteers and blood donors after 9-11-2001 if America exists.

And I'm sure a Chrokee will let us knwo that America exists. They are given reervations, and all kinds of charity.

And put this in your box that you will throw out too:

What some exploreres did way back when, has nothing to do with the quality of the country that we are now. And I cannot judge Americans in general by such things. It is human nature in general, for all people of all races and creeds, that we need to be cynical about.

The thing unique about America in my mind, has been our goodness, and our willingness to put our lives on the line to help others.

Serioulsy Tim, I'm looking you in the eye right now. Seriously, look at me; just look at me. And listen:

It is fashionable for some, to blame America first for anything and everything. But that is by no means whatsoever, again

it is by no means whatsoever

reasonable

to blame every problem on America.

It is EXTREMELY reasonable, to be wary of human nature in general,

but it is EXTREMELY unreasonable to want to always blame America first for everything.

Now, you can choose to go ahead and live the rest of your life doing that.

But

1) You'd be a jerk, and
2) you would be totally distant from reality.

But if that's the best you want to do for yourself, then go for it.

Jim

"What some exploreres did way back when, has nothing to do with the quality of the country that we are now."

i agree.

and what some civil rights workers did 50 years ago doesn't seem to have a lot to do with it either.

not those who fought the nazis (even though we really had precious little to do with the fal of that regime)...

and i love that you brought up freed slaves....... let's ask them how they feel about being put INTO slavery, in the first place, shall we?

now... i'm not as far over the tim's side as you might think, but your (jim's) blind patriotism is just as bad as tim's blanket assessment....

oh yea... and one last thing..
"And I'm sure a Chrokee will let us knwo that America exists. They are given reervations, and all kinds of charity."

if you think this is how native americans feel, you really know nothing of the history of our nation. we occupied, conquered, and stole their land, gave them small patches of land to live on, and told them to be happy. we introduced them to alcohol, we gave (and give) them just enough to survive on (and then added insult to injury by letting second rate actors with spray on tans play them in countless moveis)....thank goodness for their casinos. i'm glad to see them get something back.

Larry,

You are as extreme as Tim; you are both members of the "Blame America First" cult. You both see guys like me and Dobson as the bad guys and Jerkamiah Wrights as the good guys. And God wants you to nail it to the cross once and for all.

"not those who fought the nazis (even though we really had precious little to do with the fall of that regime)..."

Yeah, why did we even need to go there in the first place, really? What a bunch of a-holes we were going over there and putting our lives on the line. We're just greedy, that's all.

Jim

my point, jim, is that we, america, had very little to do with the fall of the third reich.... read your history.

if i blame america first, it's because i am accepting part of the blame, as a part of this country. i think wright is dead wrong, horribly wrong... and i find it doubly insulting, because he calls himself a christian.

what God wants me to do, jim, is live for Him. He wants me to go into the world and make disciples. God wants my life to revolve around Him, not the good ol' usa...... He wants my entire life to be an act of worship; He really couldn't care less what i think of the USA. in fact, if we look at the gov't's he set up, they look very little like a capitalist representative democracy. they actually look like socialist communism. you've been reading the old testament, so you should know that...... and if you think heaven is going to be a capitalist representative democracy, i think you better read the new testament a little more closely.

don't ever accuse me of hating this country, jim. if i didn't like it, i'd leave. i hate a lot of things my country has done, and a lot that is has stood for, and a lot that it stands for now, but i've yet to find anywhere else half as good (outside some little caribbean island, but i can't live the lifestyle i enjoy, there).

From "Third Reich" in Wikipedia in the section called "The End of The Third Reich":

"The victorious Allies outlawed the Nazi Party, its subsidiary organizations, and most symbols and emblems (including the swastika in most manifestations) throughout Germany and Austria; this prohibition remains in force to the present day."

And I'm sure that the US presence and success had something to do with Hitler and his mistress-become-wife wanting to kill themselves.

Jim

i said read your history, not check a website edited by whoever wants to.

and all that says is that the allies were victorious... it says nothing about who played what role.

and i'm not sure what a ban on nazi's in austria and germany has to do with us.

are we bothering you tim?

"and all that says is that the allies were victorious... it says nothing about who played what role."

Uh, the US were a member of the Allies, and the biggest contributor to the Allies.

And again

"The victorious Allies outlawed the Nazi Party, its subsidiary organizations, and most symbols and emblems (including the swastika in most manifestations) throughout Germany and Austria; this prohibition remains in force to the present day."

And in terms of what role played, is there something that you don't understand about "outlawed"? Wikipedia or not, it is part of history.

I do not encourage you to hold to your belief; but I'll tell you what. If you want to insist that the US had nothing to do with ending the 3rd Reich, then please go right ahead. It is between you and God.

Jim

outlawed.. they made it illegal to be a nazi, in those countries.

this was POST-victory, jim. after the war.

the US was definitely a part of the allies. they were fighting a war on two fronts, alongside many other countries.

how many US soldiers saw combat in germany?

research this.... even if we had not intervened, the russians would have crushed nazi germany.

i didn't say we had nothing to do with it, i said we had very little.

and again... i do not believe God cares even a whit what i think about us foreign policy during WW2.

and as you so often do, you have ignored the meat of the discussion at hand, to latch onto minor issues.

If we didn't help win the war, we would not be able to outlaw it.

And how long would Russia have lasted if we were not taking care of the other part of Europe?

The meat of the conversation is that you choose to belittle America's goodness and magnify the negative points of its history. You choose to throw away your vote rather than help the unborn. You justify it with all kind of crazy theories about how its no more urgent an issue than the others. 4400 babies killed a day in the US alone, and to you I'm merely spouting propaganda. Don't pull a Charley Norman on God, we're dealing with real people and real things here.

God wants us to love and respect our country. The scripture says to give thanks for kings. When was the last time you thanked God for our current president?

And they weren't socialists in the NT, they were all huddling together before hell broke loose on Jerusalem. That's the only reason they were sharing their things in that specific moment in time.

Jim

you think that's why they shared? then you missed the entire point.

i can't talk to you about this until you see the folly of that. they were called to communal living.

i have no crazy theories, only God's word. it tells me that these issues are all important, and that earthly gov'ts are not, and that i have to vote for the person who i feel best represents God's will. we disagree on what God wants, so we will never be able to agree on which candidate meets that criteria.

i think God for leadership often. and i pray he will give them wisdom to stop doing things that are diametrically opposed to His will.

i don't choose to belittle their goodness. i just don't choose to magnify their goodness, to make the US look better than it is. i see the balance. good, and bad... we've been both. we've been in, and out, of God's will. but more often than not, we've been out. like we are now.

WE didn't outlaw it..... the allies did, of which we were only one member.

No yr not bothering me, larry, I'm happy to let someone else jabber at Jim. I would like to explain the 'America doesn't exist' line. The words all maen are created equal, a basic tenet of our declaration of independence was written by a slave owner. Rationalize all you want, but this one's simple: America is a lie and has always been a lie.

Oh, and, Jim "Tim you simply must STOP" is the best review I've ever recieved and, for that, I thank you. Other than that please do shut up. This ain't 'Meet the Press' motherfucker.


This is art.
tb

Oh and history's about as reliable as wikipedia in that it's written by the victors, no?
tb

"Other than that please do shut up. This ain't 'Meet the Press' motherfucker. This is art. "

OK. Put away the cane. Put away the hat. I can flick on "Singing in the Rain", if I want Broadway entertainment.

See, what I want is, sincerity and levelheadedness.

So here is what you do.

You say

"It is a shame that the writer of the Declaration of Independence did not recognize blacks as full human beings. But he was right when he said that all men are equal in the eyes of God. Thankfully, our country has grown so much since then. And Lord, I love you. Please forgive me for failing to see that the babies in the womb are equal as well, and give me the courage to address this injustice."

Now, entertaining is a good thing sometimes, for sure. So I encourage you to use your guitar and voice for those purposes, in a concert type of setting, where it is really appreciated.

Jim

"you think that's why they shared? then you missed the entire point.

i can't talk to you about this until you see the folly of that. they were called to communal living."

Dude, they knew that the destruction of Jerusaelm was immenent. That's what Revelation, The Book of Hebrews, and Jesus' propphecies were all about. They all knew it was coming. So, of course they hunkered down and shared until the day approached. It had nothing to do with a Socialist economy. They were living light so that it would be easy to head for the hills once the tide of Roman soldiers came in.

Jim

"WE didn't outlaw it..... the allies did, of which we were only one member."

So if we were ONE member of the Allies, how can we have done ZERO to help end the 3rd Reich?

Jim

i never once said zero, jim. i said very little.

much like australia was a member of our little alliance in iraq...

and we appreciate all 5 people they sent.

again.... if you really think that about the entire new testament, then we're so far apart, that there's no need to talk about it any more.

"i never once said zero, jim. i said very little. much like australia was a member of our little alliance in iraq... and we appreciate all 5 people they sent."

Don't worry Larry, I won't ever say that you don't love our country, ...


























because it goes without saying.

Jim

"again.... if you really think that about the entire new testament, then we're so far apart, that there's no need to talk about it any more."

That was my point, that we need to take the whole New Testament in its proper context.

Jim

feel free to start a post about it on your board.

as to the previous post? not deserving of a reply. sit on your couch, post on message boards all you want. some of us have gone out and proved our allegiance, and would do so again.

i love this country, jim. just like i love my dad. there are things that both do that piss me off beyond belief, but at the end of the day, i love them, and would fight for them. even when they are dead wrong.

"So here is what you do.

You say

"It is a shame that the writer of the Declaration of Independence did not recognize blacks as full human beings. But he was right when he said that all men are equal in the eyes of God. Thankfully, our country has grown so much since then. And Lord, I love you. Please forgive me for failing to see that the babies in the womb are equal as well, and give me the courage to address this injustice."

Still in the business of telling people what to say and how to think, eh? So Jefferson's OK if he believes what he preaches even as he doesn't practice it? It's this type of denial and, yes, hypocricy that defines you in my eyes, Jim. How can you defend the 'false premise' that is America?

And again, when you state something is a false premise it sounds like you know the true premise and you wind up claiming Truth w/a capital T again and I again MUST point out that you areso full of shit yr eyes are brown.
tb

now THAT'S entertainment.

"Still in the business of telling people what to say and how to think, eh?"

Just trying to show what a more level-headed reasonable response would be, for those who care to behave as such.

"So Jefferson's OK if he believes what he preaches even as he doesn't practice it? It's this type of denial and, yes, hypocricy that defines you in my eyes, Jim. How can you defend the 'false premise' that is America?"

What a level-headed person would say:

"While Thomas Jefferson was not perfect, he still did many good things in the formation of our country."

Your "their either a good person or evil incarnate" serves absolutely nothing in a sincere discussion.

"And again, when you state something is a false premise it sounds like you know the true premise and you wind up claiming Truth w/a capital T"

You claim to know the truth too Tim; but you did not even try to use sound logic, and that is the problem I have with you.

"again and I again MUST point out that you areso full of shit yr eyes are brown."

OK, so who is being the closed-minded one here? Not me.

"now THAT'S entertainment."

My entertainment is getting at the treasure of truth. Your entertainment is poor logic, and unnecessary insults.

Jim

"Unneccessary"?

No Jim, that's not the word I'd use. I feel it's my sworn duty as a freethinker to insult, dismiss and, yes, cuss out mindless line toe-ers like you. I have no claim to truth just a mouthfull of hate for hypocrites like you.
tb